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SCAR-L 新用家

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原帖由 jn_jona 於 22-7-2010 11:17 PM 發表

緊係唔用la,d美軍成日話5.56x45(m4/m16)係亞富汗山區唔夠stopping power,唔通重用scar-l咩...
M16同M4SERIES咪一樣用5.56NATO
另外,5.56NATO唔夠STOPPINGPOWER,可以MK.262
MK.16被人CUT,主要是如果要配備新的武器的話,新產品一定要有絕對性的優勢(或彌補目前的所缺)軍隊才會採用。

[ 本帖最後由 Oscarpanzer 於 22-7-2010 23:35 編輯 ]

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http://www.defensereview.com/wil ... e-the-scar-program/

Can the FN MK17 SCAR-H (SCAR-Heavy) 7.62mm Common Receiver and 5.56mm Caliber Conversion Kit Save the SCAR Program?
On July 16, 2010, in Featured, Rifles And Carbines, Special Operations, by David Crane

By Chen Lee a.k.a. “SMGLee”
(Edited by David Crane)
defrev (at) gmail (dot) com

July 16, 2010

Some have said the SCAR is dead (at least the MK16 SCAR-L variant), but from the start of the SCAR program (PDF format document link), its goal has been a receiver that can handle both the 5.56mm NATO (5.56×45mm) and 7.62 NATO (7.62×51mm) cartridges. So, as the various AR manufactures complained, the FN MK16 SCAR-Light (SCAR-L) and FN MK17 SCAR-Heavy (SCAR-H) (PDF format) were born to make the competition more achievable by the industry. As the MK16 SCAR-L won the initial contract, the planned evolution of this weapon was for it to employ a multicaliber single receiver, better know as the “common receiver”. This explains the recent decision to run with the Mk-17 and use a 5.56mm adapter kit/conversion kit for it and to produce a common receiver/multicaliber weapons platform.

The ball for a new combat rifle for SOCOM (USSOCOM) started rolling in the late 90s, and over time, this ball would roll into what would eventually become the the now famous SCAR program (PDF format) on the heels of a solicitation that was released shortly after 9/11, when funding began to pour into SOCOM. From the start, the SCAR weapons concept was to be developed to include a combat rifle and sniper variant in both 5.56mm and 7.62mm calibers. However, once FN Herstal/FNH USA won the contract, and evaluators discovered during one of the test cycles that the MK16, outfitted with with FN’s standard hammer-forged, chrome lined barrel, was capable of shooting 8-inch (8〃) 10-round groups at 800 yard during one of the testing cycle–yes that is ten rounds at 800 yards, all funnelled into an 8〃 group–the idea of developing a 5.56 sniper variant was cancelled. This freed SOCOM up to concentrate on the Mk16, Mk17, and Mk20 SSR (Sniper Support Rifle) with a SCAR-PR (Precision Rifle), or the so called “Shroud” as the DMR (Designated Markman Rifle). So, when SOCOM decided to move the development funding for the the Mk-16 and Mk-17 and roll it into the Mk17 with a common receiver, it was also part of the cycle of development, but that announcement created the appearance of the MK16 program’s cancellation, and resulting reportage with that interpretation (Editor’s Note: DefenseReview does not necessarily agree with the author’s interpretation of recent events. We don’t necessarily disagree, either. We’re just not sure, yet. The fact is, the MK16 SCAR program is effectively cancelled at present, if only temporarily, before the MK17 SCAR common receiver solution is implemented and subsequently adopted in large numbers (if it’s eventually adopted in large numbers. Time will tell.).
Some might say the MK17 platform is too large and heavy for the 5.56mm cartridge. However, the Mk17 utilizes a 7000-series extruded-aluminum (sheet metal) receiver with a monolithic rail system and brace-welds (brace welding). If you make this receiver a common receiver and offer a 5.56mm caliber conversion kit, thus turning the weapon into a 5.56mm platform, you’ve really only added about an inch (1〃) in length to the existing Mk16 receiver (increasing your usable real estate) and a half pound (.5 lbs) in weight, with slightly more plastic on the trigger housing. You’re still running the same barrel and folding/telescoping buttstock configurations as the MK16. The bolt carrier group, of course, must be changed to run the 5.56mm cartridge. So, even though, in the end, a 5.56mm-converted Mk17 weighs a half pound more than the dedicated Mk16 SCAR-L, it’s still a lightweight system, especially compared to the Remington ACR (Advanced Combat Rifle), formerly known as the MagPul Masada in prototype form.

Some have noted that the Mk17 has experienced short-stroking problems when fired off-hand or if the weapon wasn’t held in a secure fashion. This is true, but no one ever explained the reason for this. The current crop of standard-issue 7.62×51mm ammo within the inventory (like M80 ball, utilizing a 147gr bullet) wasn’t designed to shoot in a 13.5-inch (13.5〃) or 16-inch (16〃) barrel. so a program to develop a 7.62mm NATO round that will support and optimize the SCAR/Mk17 platform was started, called SOST (Special Operations Science and Technology). The SOST program initially yielded a .308 Win. round that weighed in at 135gr (remember, the standard M80 ball round weighs 147gr) and it was also down-loaded to ease some of the complaints coming in that a lightweight (but of course too heavy as a 5.56mm rifle) Mk17 was recoiling too hard. This new ammo wasn’t really field-tested thoroughly before being deployed with the Mk17 into unit evaluation and combat. This bit of misstep caused the rumors to run amok about how unreliable the MK17 has been, especially when fired off-hand, and not securely from the shoulder. But I have personnally witnessed an operator firing standard M80 7.62mm NATO ball ammo through a MK17 while holding only the pistol grip and vertical foregrip with the gun out to the side. The weapon shot fine, magazine after magazine. So, stories about the Mk17 short-stroking seem troubling only until one knows the whole story behind it.

So, is the FN MK16 SCAR-L dead? NO (Editor’s Note: Both the Defense Review editorial staff and Kit Up! maintain the opposing position: that the MK16 has indeed been effectively cancelled, at least for the indefinite future). Many operators want the FN MK17 SCAR-H battle rifle/carbine/SBR (Short Barreled Rifle) as a new capability for the warfighter in the 7.62mm/.308 trim, not as a replacement capability for the already-proven (battle-proven) Colt M4/M4A1 Carbine and MK18 MOD 0/ M4 CQBR (Close Quarters Battle Receiver) SBR 5.56mm/.223 Rem. systems. The Mk17 will introduce a new capability that SOCOM warfighter hasn’t had, to date: a modern 7.62mm/.308 battle rifle/carbine/SBR that’s lightweight, modular (with hot-swappable barrels), reliable, and accurate. Is Mk-16 better than the M4/M4A1? NO. The Mk16 does not provide a measurable or significant increase in combat capability or any lethality advantage over the M4/M4A1 carbine/rifle platform, so many operators have asked the following question: Why replace a good-capability weapon system with a proven track record and a high degree/level of end-user satisfaction, a weapon that has benefited from continued, long-term product improvement and evolution cycles over the past 20 years, with a brand new, unproven weapon system (FN MK16 SCAR-L) that does not really provide any real increase in combat performance?

Remember, the Colt M4/M4A1 Carbine platform came out around the late 1980s, and continued product development and improvements over the past twenty years made it one of the most capable and reliable 5.56mm weapons in the world. So, the redirection of funding to the MK17 7.62mm platform was inevitable. SOCOM will therefore be taking two of the best combat rifles into the Global War on Terror (GWOT) for the foreseeable future: the famed M4/M4A1 and the new kid on the block, the Mk17. The question is, will the M4/M4A1 be replaced someday by the SCAR? The answer is most likely YES! The M4/M4A1 will be replaced not because the Mk17 with the 5.56mm conversion kit is more reliable, or because it performs better (it doesn’t), no sir. The MK17 multicaibler weapons platform will most likely replace the M4/M4A1 because some bean counter in Washington will eventually figure out he does not have to buy a new M4 or M4A1 Carbine in order to shoot 5.56mm ammo at the enemy. He can instead just buy a 5.56mm conversion kit for the MK17 at 1/4 of the cost of the M4/M4A1, and the Mk-17 will be able to shoot the same 5.56mm ammo (62gr M855A1 “Green Ammo”, 77gr MK262 MOD 1, 70gr 5.56 Optimized a.k.a. “Brown Tip” ammo with Barnes solid copper Triple-Shock (TM) X Bullet a.k.a. TSX Bullet technology, 62gr MK318 MOD 0 SOST, you name it). The M4/M4A1 AR platform weapons will not be replaced because of their performance capabilities or lack thereof. They will ultimately be replaced because of the allmighty dollar! That’s it. The FN MK17 5.56mm conversion kit will simply be more cost-effective, i.e. cheeper…and that, ladies and gentlemen will be that.

[ 本帖最後由 Oscarpanzer 於 22-7-2010 23:36 編輯 ]

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引用:
原帖由 jackieyue 於 22-7-2010 11:31 PM 發表

其實最重要係好多美軍比scar打斷手指骨...
HOW?
COULD EXPLAIN IN DETAILS?

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引用:
原帖由 101653 於 22-7-2010 11:35 PM 發表

唔洗錢?
唔通又走去換口徑??
美軍引入mk.262已經一段時間,at least better than nothing

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引用:
原帖由 101653 於 22-7-2010 11:46 PM 發表

唔好玩啦
引入唔等於廣泛應用
美國已經成日偷雞囉番D倉底貨出黎用
又MEU又M14又MK18咁
買新玩具試下玩兩下比一兩支部隊用
唔等於引入就要全部換哂囉
我無話引入等於廣泛應用
只不過話用新彈藥,係現時較實際的做法
用倉底貨,最終目的係省錢

[ 本帖最後由 Oscarpanzer 於 22-7-2010 23:53 編輯 ]

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引用:
原帖由 101653 於 22-7-2010 11:55 PM 發表


由於全世界都有防彈衣
再加上後座力的控制技術提高
美國果邊E家慢慢引入番D打7.62既槍

一個治標方法同一個治本方法
你選邊樣?
問題所謂治本方法最終都係有局限性,不同彈藥係不同情況先可以發揮最佳效能
就算比你用新口徑,又如何?到時,咪一樣有人話GO BACK TO 5.56NATO
而且用新口徑仲貴,一來好難清倉庫貨,二來又要俾一大$$$去FIX LOGISTICS
http://www.militaryphotos.net/fo ... tandard-round/page9


BY THE WAY ,STH FROM MAGFUL FOR SCAR


[ 本帖最後由 Oscarpanzer 於 23-7-2010 00:16 編輯 ]

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引用:
原帖由 horenhim 於 23-7-2010 12:11 AM 發表
http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=640
Belgium-based firearms manufacturer FN Herstal hereby refutes theallegations recently found on the web that USSOCOM abandoned the 5.56version of the SCAR ...
NOT THAT EARLY ONLY

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引用:
原帖由 101653 於 23-7-2010 12:17 AM 發表

用7.62點樣會仲貴?
貴得過一粒mk262?
你認真? 諗清楚d?
7.62NATO in field for over 50years 何來會”新”呢?
I thought you're talking about 6.5and 6.8,my bad

[ 本帖最後由 Oscarpanzer 於 23-7-2010 00:21 編輯 ]

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引用:
原帖由 101653 於 23-7-2010 12:22 AM 發表

冇人叫你用新野wo
所以美國佬咪囉番D倉底貨出黎囉
囉番MEU出黎就話9MM打人唔死
囉番M14出黎亦都係話M4打人唔死
當然錢亦係一個重要問題
但主要原因係.223根本做唔到佢要既野

就係咁簡單
問題當初玩小口徑,係因為根本7.62NATO太大一個步兵唔會有太多AMMO,加上且有幾多人可以打得準,都成問題
所以先以量取勝

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引用:
原帖由 horenhim 於 23-7-2010 12:24 AM 發表


小弟有感大大神機妙算, 可否指教一下小弟SCAR-L在美軍是否窮途末路
I'm not大大,all what I ahd said before was written in the passage which I have quoted from SMGLEE
SCAR-L will not be in field officaly that early,they just want to spend more time with the M4 and MK.18

[ 本帖最後由 Oscarpanzer 於 23-7-2010 00:31 編輯 ]

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回覆 40# 的帖子

總之根據SMGLEE的說法,FN SCAR-L係唔會咁早上場

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引用:
原帖由 101653 於 23-7-2010 02:46 AM 發表

請問你GET唔GET到個問題所在?
話知你粒MK262講到曉飛上太空
咪又係一粒.223

E家係.223打敵人唔死阿
打唔死人就即係美軍會比人打死阿
仲同你慢慢磨.223? 前線果班友仔博緊命架
非.223可以打穿甲 , 如果唔係都已經冇乜發展空間
你唔好當7.62NATO萬能,FN SCAR-H又唔會取代M16/M4
7.62NATO最終都係有重量問題,如果全面用返7.62NATO即係走回頭路,,
而且現代infantry裝備已經重量多過以前好多
仲有目前7.62步槍的用途以DMR為主,目前大把人仲用緊5.56NATO
另外,仲有另一個問題,有幾多人有高hit rate?
小口徑彈藥已經出現40年,連前USSR都玩埋,證明小口徑優勢
當年7.62nato有咩問題已經清楚
子彈的發揮最佳效能都要DEPEND ON槍管長短
所以將MK.262這類型子彈大量配發,先係實質SOLUTION
何謂無研究空間?科技日新月異,UNLESS你係神,你可以肯定無NEW MATERIAL去更新5.56NATO?
US ARMY已經研究M855A1,則USMC研究MK.318


[ 本帖最後由 Oscarpanzer 於 23-7-2010 09:37 編輯 ]

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New U.S. Army 5.56 Rounds Head to Afghanistan

New U.S. Army 5.56 Rounds Head to Afghanistan

By Scott R. Gourley in Land Forces under Defense Technology, Featured, News with 3 comments
New U.S. Army 5.56 Rounds Head to Afghanistan

On June 23, 2010, U.S. Army representatives announced that they had started shipping that service’s new 5.56mm cartridge, designated the M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round, to support warfighters in Afghanistan.

The new M855A1 round, which will replace the current M855 5.56mm cartridge that has been used by U.S. troops since the early 1980s, is sometimes referred to as “green ammo” since it contains an environmentally friendly projectile that reportedly eliminates up to 2,000 tons of lead from the manufacturing process each year.

The Army launched the M855A1 program in September 2005 as a Congressionally mandated initiative to replace the lead core M855 cartridge. In addition, the program focused efforts on developing a new round that would address what service planners dubbed “perceived shortcomings” with the current M855 used in short barreled weapons like the M4.

According to program participants, the program team, comprised of Project Manager, Maneuver Ammunition Systems (PM-MAS), Army Research Laboratory (ARL), U.S. Army Armaments Research Development and Engineering Center (ARDEC), and ATK team members, evaluated more than 20 potential projectile designs before moving forward with a three-piece, reverse-jacket bullet design incorporating a hardened steel penetrator and lead-free slug.

While Army representatives highlight ballistic test results for the new M855A1 cartridge that showed “improved performance over M855 at both long and short ranges, and across an array of target sets,” the round raised eyebrows following recent reports that the Marine Corps dropped plans to field the M855A1 in favor of fielding the special operations’ MK 318 Mod 0 for Marines in Afghanistan.

The M855A1 uses a reverse-jacketed copper projectile with a hardened steel tip and contains no lead. Courtesy photo via U.S. Army.

In announcing the late June 2010 shipment of the M855A1 round to Army warfighters, service representatives highlighted “a number of significant enhancements not found in the current round. These include improved hard target capability, more dependable, consistent performance at all distances, improved accuracy, reduced muzzle flash and a higher velocity.”

During testing the M855A1 performed better than current 7.62mm ball ammunition against certain types of targets, blurring the performance differences that previously separated the two rounds,” the announcement read, and continued, “The projectile incorporates these improvements without adding weight or requiring additional training.”

Describing the projectile as “the best general purpose 5.56mm round ever produced,” Lt. Col. Jeffrey K. Woods, M855A1 product manager, characterized the fielding as ”the most significant advancement in general purpose small caliber ammunition in decades.”

U.S. Army Project Manager, Maneuver Ammunition Systems Chris Grassano called the fielding “the culmination of an Army enterprise effort by a number of organizations, particularly the Army Research Laboratory, Armament Research Development and Engineering Center, Program Executive Office for Ammunition and the Joint Munitions Command.

“The Army utilized advanced science, modeling and analysis to produce the best 5.56mm round possible for the warfighter,” he said.

The M855A1 is tailored for use in the M4 weapon system, but is also credited with “vastly” improving the performance of the M16 and M249 families of weapons.

Pointing to “more than one million” M855A1 rounds fired during testing to date, program representatives noted that the new cartridge recently completed the limited rate initial production (LRIP) phase and is beginning the follow-on full rate production phase where they plan to procure more than 200 million rounds over the next 12-15 months.

Soldiers in Afghanistan will begin using the M855A1 in the summer of 2010.


http://theyearindefense.com/land ... head-to-afghanistan

[ 本帖最後由 Oscarpanzer 於 23-7-2010 09:25 編輯 ]

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